Rachel Elizabeth Dillon ([info]rax) wrote,

Why I Have Difficulty Considering Myself Bisexual

(Was going to put this on my pseudonymous blog and decided to hell with it, I want to hear from my friends about this. May be more PG-13 than usual.)

To be clear, I have no problem with "bisexual" as a descriptive label. I have a boyfriend and two girlfriends [-1]; my behavior is clearly bisexual. [0] I do sometimes have difficulty taking on bisexuality as an identity category for myself. I've always had difficulty with the label "bisexual" even though it was the first alternative sexual label I took on myself. Here's a hilarious-awkward timeline of my reasons for not calling myself bi:
  • When I originally tried to come out to people at around fifteen --- my senior year of high school --- they denied that bisexuality existed, and told me that I was gay, and that claiming bisexuality was just a way to hedge around my own internalized homophobia. (Except they didn't use that language at the time.) For some reason, I absorbed this idea and repeated it to myself and others.
  • For a while in college I claimed to be "bi until graduation, except in reverse" as a way to excuse my obviously not-strictly-homosexual behavior. I'm not sure anyone bought this one.
  • When I started to transition, I had this bizarre theory that I was queer both as a man and as a woman and that my sexual orientation was shifting and confused while I was in between genders. Therefore I was attracted to people from both genders, but only because I was both genders, and once I stopped being both genders, I would only be attracted to women? This is slightly less crazycakes than it sounds, but still rather silly.
  • After my first serious attempt at a non-monogamous relationship went horribly south, I concluded that it was impossible to be bisexual, because my mystical One True Love could only have one sex/gender [1] and once I found them I would know what my sexual orientation was. ...What? Rachel, you seriously thought this for like three whole years? I have nothing to say in my defense other than that I am better now.
For the last while I've taken to calling myself "queer" on the grounds that it's a good label for "it's complicated and not heteronormative," and that's still the closest I come to something I am comfortable calling myself as an identity category. Generally if I want to identify as anything surrounding my sexuality, it's about what I do and not whom. I've been thinking about bisexuality recently because of my schoolwork and some conversations with friends, though, and because it's a label that other people have been putting on me because I am interacting sexually with people of more than one gender. I've been thinking, then, "Okay, what would it mean to take this on as an identity? Is it a useful identity for me? Is it a useful decriptor?"

The last question is easiest so I will approach it first. It is a useful descriptor at a far-distance level, because it is more specific than queer, and because using that descriptor or a related one helps to combat bi invisibility in queer circles. This battle is much more won in my social circles than it is in other queer social circles; I really have no idea where it stands in academia and theory-land. (Although one classmate's eagerness at discovering I had partners of multiple genders suggests there is still work to be done, and I have seen very limited academic work on bisexual queerness.) Closer in I suppose it is a useful descriptor for people who are thinking "Is Rachel potentially interested in person X?" in that it proves that the answer to that question is not dependent on gender.

Except that it totally is --- or at least it is dependent on some intersection of gender and sexed embodiment.

I largely don't care what's in someone's pants [2]; everyone I've interacted with has been awesome in some ways and challenging in others and I am grateful for the privilege of interacting with anyone at such a private level who I care for enough to reciprocate interest. I guess in that I find variety nice, that points toward bisexuality! But I do care about other aspects of sexed embodiment, like voices and skin texture and body hair and smell. In most of these contexts, except maybe voice, I tend pretty strongly towards preferring female embodied characteristics --- smooth skin, less hair, and not smelling like man. (I don't know how to better describe it. There is a family of smells I associate with adult human males that I find largely unpleasant.)

Sometimes I choose to be physically intimate with people who have those qualities anyway. This could be because I love them dearly. It could be because there are other things about them whose positive-attractiveness cancels out the negative-attractiveness of dude smell or whatever. It could also just be because I have chosen to not care for an evening. These are all choices. While sexual orientation at some level may not be a choice, and does not feel like one --- I don't choose to be attracted to long hair or smooth skin or cat ears or whatever --- sexual expression is something I choose and want to continue to claim and possess as a choice that I can make on a daily or lifelong basis. If I have an innate sexual orientation that I cannot change, it is probably pretty close to "lesbian." [3] I'm not sure that this idea of an innate sexual orientation is a terribly useful one for me, but if I'm going to define one, I'm not sure it should be "bisexual."

That said, I don't have a better term. The most obvious thing to suggest would be a Kinsey 5, but while I guess that could be a useful broad-strokes description of behavior, I don't feel it's accurate at an identity level. I'd rather think about it in terms of magnitudes; the magnitude of my attraction to female body characteristics is generally positive and the magnitude of my attraction to male body characteristics is generally negative, but there's a lot more to attraction (especially for long-term partners versus Random Dude/t/te At Party or something) than body type, and sometimes the magnitude of the vectors adds up to very positive even when there are one or two negative vectors in there like "covered in body hair." This is potentially related to Violet's excellent "Vector Identity Theory," although the specific formulation she provides is related to gender identity and not sexual partner choice. [4]
So uhhhhh... what do y'all think?

[-1] Don't feel bad, I can't keep track either. I discovered I had the second girlfriend by reading a third party's LJ.

[0] OK, I have a little of a problem. I wish that the term "bisexual" didn't reinforce the idea that there are two sexes, and that you can be attracted to either or both of them (or neither if you're on the ball and recognize asexuality as a valid identity-zone for people to inhabit). There aren't two sexes, at least not when you get down to individual cases, and attraction is crazy mad complicated, and if you accept that gender and sex aren't the same even if you believe they are related, then bigendersexual and bisexual aren't necessarily the same and "pansexual" or "omnisexual" starts to look better, except that then you're throwing away all of the work done by bisexual activists to try to get bisexuality recognized at all, and you open up the can of worms and each worm is holding a barrel full of disappointingly serious monkeys. If you could do me a favor and accept that when I say "bisexuality" I mean "bi/pan/omnisexuality" that would be awesome.

[1] A problematic assumption in and of itself.

[2] To the extent to which I do, it is none of the internet's business.

[3] I doubt that I do, in a lifelong sense, because of how often this has changed for me. However, if I do have one, the last five years or so of data suggest it's oriented mostly toward an approximation of "woman."

[4] "Sexual object choice" is arguably the term of art, but my sexual object choice usually involves going to hardware stores, while my sexual partner choice involves going to coffeeshops.
This entry was originally posted at http://rax.dreamwidth.org/66818.html.
Tags: gender, queer, sexuality, the self as text

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  • 61 comments

[info]lhexa

December 23 2010, 21:13:35 UTC 1 year ago

I think that arguing over terminology is one of the most important and yet silliest tasks of any subculture.

Also: "...bi until graduation, except in reverse." Er, what does this mean, either way?

[info]rax

December 23 2010, 21:22:57 UTC 1 year ago

Yeah, I had written this and couldn't decide if I was going to post it publically or not because in some ways it is hopefully interesting to other people and in other ways it is MY NAVEL, LET ME SHOW YOU IT.

"Bi until graduation" or "lesbian until graduation" is a trope where (generally) women engage in same-sex relationships while in college and then go off and marry men and have families and identify as basically straight with the college period having been experimentation. Women who dated/were dating them are often very frustrated with this. It's sort of related to the phenomenon where lesbians are worried that bi women will leave them for men generally?

[info]rax

1 year ago

[info]lhexa

1 year ago

[info]plymouth

December 23 2010, 21:21:34 UTC 1 year ago

The best term I've come up with to describe myself is "androsexual". As in I am attracted to people who present as androgynous, the moreso the better. I am unattracted to especially masculine or especially feminine people regardless of what's in their pants. I find this is more accurate than "bisexual" or "omnisexual" for me.

I really WANTED to identify as bisexual for a long time but I could never quite make it work. And most of my actual experience is still with boys. And seems likely to remain so given that I'm being effectively monogamous with one.

[info]rax

December 24 2010, 00:42:38 UTC 1 year ago

Huh! I think androsexual is a useful classification. It's not quite true for me, although as described by [info]postrodent, it's not completely untrue either.

[info]plymouth

1 year ago

[info]rax

1 year ago

[info]rysmiel

December 23 2010, 22:06:43 UTC 1 year ago

Humankind is that animal which can be distinguished from other animals by the urge to taxonomise, perhaps ?

My annoying undergrad experiences tended to be more along the lines of people piling into me for claiming to be bisexual because they assumed it had to mean 50/50 when my visible range of partners showed a strong skew - I have probably an 85/15 preference for other-sex partners, but that's in a context of an absolute correlation between knowing people well and being capable of being seriously attracted to them, and a very strong preference for other-sex friends, which is a different thing but skews the visible samples at any specific time rather strongly. (I hold that direction of sexual desire and direction of tropism for close friendships are very distinct - I'd point to much of Leonard Cohen's body of work as making it eminently clear that he has a tropism for female partners and also one for close male friends for example.)

I have been reading here for a while, btw, and rarely feel I have much to say directly to what you write, but I do appreciate the opportunity to read it. Hopefully newish job will eat me slightly less in the New Year and I will have the brain for more actual conversation.

(I have long been saying my number of partners comes with error bars, because people differ in whether they think that, frex, someone with whom I have a definite agreement to be physically involved when next geography, health and inclination coincide to allow, but with whom that hasn't yet, counts or not.)

These days I favour referring to my orientation as "angelic", after the bit in Aquinas about how each angel is a species unto itself. (As a working molecular biologist, I firmly believe the very notion of "species" was defunct with Darwin, so there's irony there, too.)

[info]rax

December 24 2010, 00:58:35 UTC 1 year ago

Humankind is that animal which can be distinguished from other animals by the urge to taxonomise, perhaps ?

Hah. Perhaps!

(I have long been saying my number of partners comes with error bars, because people differ in whether they think that, frex, someone with whom I have a definite agreement to be physically involved when next geography, health and inclination coincide to allow, but with whom that hasn't yet, counts or not.)

That is not generally a model I use, although I guess if you expanded the definition of "partner" sufficiently it would change my count. I'm thinking only of people with whom I have a fairly long-term commitment and who I do relationship work with even across distance. I guess that doesn't necessarily not include what you've described. Hm. Labels are hard.

These days I favour referring to my orientation as "angelic", after the bit in Aquinas about how each angel is a species unto itself.

Aaaaaaa does this mean I have to read Aquinas too now? ...oh wait I am in graduate school I have to read everything.

[info]schrodi_kitten

December 23 2010, 22:31:08 UTC 1 year ago

you open up the can of worms and each worm is holding a barrel full of disappointingly serious monkeys

Nice. ^_^ And this was an interesting read, many salient points of which I can apply to my own life and sexuality.

[info]weirdquark

December 23 2010, 22:42:55 UTC 1 year ago

[0] OK, I have a little of a problem. I wish that the term "bisexual" didn't reinforce the idea that there are two sexes, and that you can be attracted to either or both of them (or neither if you're on the ball and recognize asexuality as a valid identity-zone for people to inhabit). There aren't two sexes, at least not when you get down to individual cases, and attraction is crazy mad complicated, and if you accept that gender and sex aren't the same even if you believe they are related, then bigendersexual and bisexual aren't necessarily the same and "pansexual" or "omnisexual" starts to look better, except that then you're throwing away all of the work done by bisexual activists to try to get bisexuality recognized at all, and you open up the can of worms and each worm is holding a barrel full of disappointingly serious monkeys.

Yeah, I have this problem. When my options are straight, gay, and bisexual, I do choose bisexual when I have to choose anything at all, but it doesn't fit right, so I don't like doing it.

If you're a cataloger, you try to find subject headings that describe the majority of the book you're cataloging. And sometimes you can find narrow subject headings that work, and sometimes you have to go with a broader subject heading that is less descriptive because there isn't a workable narrow subject heading. And then there are narrow subject headings that kind of work, but also are misleading because while the book technically is about that subject, it's not about that subject the way the subject is usually meant. Bisexuality feels like that for me.

But there isn't a term that works either. I've heard pan- used as being attracted to a particular gender presentation, regardless of the sex of the person involved, and that's closer, but last time I tried to pin this down, the best description is that I find people who [I tag as doing] gender-as-performance attractive. Which is possibly also misleading; it's the playful theatricalness of gender that I find interesting. Or something. Because when I say I find someone attractive I generally mean they have my attention, not that I want to sleep with them. And I have no idea if this adds in an element of asexuality to the mix or if my sex drive is mostly dormant when I'm not involved with anyone or what.

[info]rax

December 24 2010, 17:31:54 UTC 1 year ago

I've heard pan- used as being attracted to a particular gender presentation, regardless of the sex of the person involved, and that's closer, but last time I tried to pin this down, the best description is that I find people who [I tag as doing] gender-as-performance attractive.

I had not heard pan being used that way! I have always heard it as "all genders." That is a difference in definitions I should watch out for. Also, I think I share the obviously performed gender as attractive thing.

[info]ff00ff

December 23 2010, 22:53:50 UTC 1 year ago

I've never seen a descriptor that has more utility than the Kinsey scale, and I'm consistently shocked when learned people, like your fellow students, are able to be shocked at or unfamiliar with bisexuality when the numbers and research say that despite your identification as strait or gay most anyone is probably slightly more accurately feeling the urges of a bisexual.

[info]rax

December 24 2010, 01:01:19 UTC 1 year ago

I have not found a better descriptor than the Kinsey scale either, but I still don't like it. :)

[info]postrodent

December 23 2010, 23:00:38 UTC 1 year ago

It's notable that while your boyfriend is male-presenting and solidly male-socialized, he's hardly all that manly. :) I would theorize that while "bisexual" is the best commonly accepted label for your attractions, most of your expressed attractions so far are toward cis-females and "people with a complicated relationship towards gender", a useful category that encompasses trans, genderqueer, probably intersex... anyone who's somewhere off the conventional binary gender map. Am I crazy here?

I don't have a problem with any of that, of course! If what I'm suggesting is true, I'm largely in the same boat -- I'm attracted to women, certain types of men, but most strongly to PWCRTGs.

[info]rax

December 24 2010, 00:21:37 UTC 1 year ago

I don't think you're crazy here; my boyfriend notably does not smell like man or have male skin texture. ;) I think that might be part of it, although I at least occasionally do have things for Manly Men of Maleness.

[info]keyoki

December 24 2010, 00:31:01 UTC 1 year ago

I'd like to say something about your footnote 0:

I identify as pansexual; I've had serious "crushes" on people who identified as male, female, and genderqueer*. I see people's gender but it doesn't weigh heavily into the way they score on my attraction scale. I, like and unlike you, however am attracted to people who carry "signals" that tend to be male linked (why are most butch woman lesbians ;-;).

I don't know if you can call all bisexuals pansexual, though. If our system wasn't bound by binaries, I'm sure there would still be some people that were only attracted to the far ends of the spectrum just like there are people who are only attracted to one end.

* I only give you this list because I've seen an emergence (most evident on tumblr!) of a "politically (something), functionally (something else)" identification system. Before this semester ended I had a friend (politically bisexual, functionally lesbian) tell me that I was politically pansexual, functionally bisexual because I had never fallen for someone outside of the binary and I only used Pan because I didn't want to enforce the binary.

[info]rax

December 24 2010, 01:28:31 UTC 1 year ago

I wonder if that makes me politically lesbian and functionally pansexual? This is interesting food for thought, thank you. I hadn't run into the political/functional idea phrased that way.

[info]rustycoon

1 year ago

[info]rax

1 year ago

[info]keyoki

1 year ago

[info]darthbitsy

December 24 2010, 00:52:03 UTC 1 year ago

I take on bisexual as a label, because despite having objections about the binary of it, etc. I think labels are more for others then they are for me. That is, the labels I use are to try to give others easy incite into things about me, not to give me incite into things about me, I already know about me! (Maybe I should really say somewhere between a 2 and an X on the Kinsey scale, but most people don't know about X meaning asexual, so its a bit harder to say.)

Which I guess is to say I have few levels of labels, depending on how much I want to convey to other people about me, and the label is something to convey information to them, not to me.

[info]rax

December 24 2010, 02:12:13 UTC 1 year ago

Interesting! I use labels as a technology for self-understanding. This is perhaps not the best use of the technology.

[info]ab3nd

1 year ago

[info]lilairen

1 year ago

[info]plymouth

1 year ago

[info]sylvanstargazer

December 24 2010, 01:11:33 UTC 1 year ago

From my point of view "bisexual" isn't any more specific than "queer" unless it's specific in the "both gender" way I don't personally want. Then again, I actively identify a queer because I've found kinship in communities of people who call themselves queer, regardless of what gender they were or what genders the people they were into were, so it's more of a political label: "These Are My People" sort of thing. Plus, I kind of like queer theory and don't mind being associated with it. It does mean I have to explain myself sometimes, but I'd probably have to do that anyway.

I like pansexual because even though it's a different Greek root I still think of Pan, but I'm actually attracted to a pretty limited feature set (mostly only non-straight people, which I haven't even made up a word for), so I feel like it would be false advertising to say I was all-sexual.

I don't know that you have to identify as bisexual in order to celebrate and honor the role bisexual activism and history has had on your life. It's a little different with a word like bisexual that people still actively-identify as, but I've heard people identify as "passing women-inspired" or similar to acknowledge their history even if they don't fully identify with it.

[info]rushthatspeaks

December 24 2010, 01:56:24 UTC 1 year ago

Oh god I find the term bisexual so complicated to relate to oh god. Because I mean I have four significant others and two are female and two are male and so it is a) technically accurate (I even have parity right now WTF) and b) [discussion of claiming and defending term against the biphobia of both straight and some queer groups goes here and is valid].

But then there's my gender, which is complex and confusing and means that I honestly could describe any one of my relationships as being either hetero- or homosexual.

And then there's the fact that I came out into and got all my initial theory from a very very second-wave environment and so there are all these things I have culturally that are a certain specific kind of lesbianism, which has its flaws (especially massive transphobia) but also has elements that I want to see preserved and held onto and identify with a lot. Despite the fact that by sleeping with and/or being a man I am in many ways ideologically betraying that part of me, which I have mostly made my piece with or I wouldn't have my current relationships but.

All of which is to say I totally understand why the taxonomy is complicated because sometimes there JUST IS NO DAMN ANSWER, and also your navel-gazing is articulate and interesting and relevant.

[info]rax

December 24 2010, 17:46:01 UTC 1 year ago

Hah! Yeah, I don't have the second-wave stuff, but I do have the "and my gender is weird, anyway" --- my genderqueerness is largely under the radar and I didn't consider it here but it does play a role. Well. My genderqueerness is largely covered up by the whole trans thing, which like 95% fixed it for me. But the difference is basically the same from the outside.

[info]maekern

December 24 2010, 02:03:14 UTC 1 year ago

That makes perfect sense. While I haven't worked it out in such exhausting detail, that is more or less how I feel about my own sexuality, and a simpler form of what you have said here is how I usually explain it to people who care.

I choose the world "bisexual" to describe myself, but only because it's simpler and I'm not as interested in sexual/gender politics as you.

[info]kelkyag

December 24 2010, 03:03:35 UTC 1 year ago Edited:  December 24 2010, 03:05:44 UTC

Your footnotes amuse me immensely today.

I wish that the term "bisexual" didn't reinforce the idea that there are two sexes, and that you can be attracted to either or both of them (or neither if you're on the ball and recognize asexuality as a valid identity-zone for people to inhabit).

This. Also, it seems to imply that someone's sex and/or gender is a substantial factor in whether I am or might be attracted to them, which so far as I can tell in my case it is not. Also, many people seem to think it is not compatable with being monogamous, which is irritating.

ETA: also what [info]sylvanstargazer said about "pansexual" -- "all" is also decidedly wrong.

[info]rax

December 24 2010, 17:50:16 UTC 1 year ago

It is a substantial factor for many people, so I sort of understand why it gets used as an early sorting characteristic. It's even a more substantial factor for me than it sounds like it is for you, and yet... blargh.

[info]identityfail

December 24 2010, 04:52:26 UTC 1 year ago

i have many things to say about this, but they all boil down to "identities are hard shit." so there's that.

[info]rax

December 24 2010, 17:50:38 UTC 1 year ago

Identities are hard. Let's go shopping?

Wait that doesn't work either.

[info]greyooze

1 year ago

[info]sprrwhwk

December 24 2010, 06:58:21 UTC 1 year ago

This mirrors a lot of my own confusion around sexual orientation, gender and labeling. I've found media like Torchwood and the works of Elizabeth Bear[0] helpful in beginning to build a bi/pan/omni-sexual/queer identity in my head, which I gloss as bisexual, but which is also productively glossed as any of the other things I list. It's an identity around a particular attitude of openness around sexual partner choice and not anything more concrete about genders and hardware and such.

Or maybe more accurately, the characters I'm thinking of don't worry about who they're attracted to and what it says about their identity. ("You people and your quaint little categories," says Jack Harkeness.) And I think that says a lot about me -- because I do worry, and I'm trying not to -- and maybe not a lot about what a "bisexual identity" or whatever should actually and productively look like, but it's the best I've got. :-)


[0]: For reasons I don't entirely remember, I recently found myself listing positive depictions of male bisexuality that I've seen, and came up with Capt. Jack Harkness and a half-dozen Bear characters and that was it. There probably are others out there -- I know of some -- but I'm not well-acquainted with them.

[info]rax

December 24 2010, 17:55:54 UTC 1 year ago

I have not run into many positive depictions of male bisexuality either! I feel like there are some more on the tip of my tongue but I do not have them to hand. I think there's value in not worrying about it, but there's also value (especially if, like me, you are choosing to spend a significant fraction of your life thinking about this stuff) in exploring it further.

[info]sprrwhwk

1 year ago

[info]lilairen

December 24 2010, 07:15:52 UTC 1 year ago

I don't really ... do ... identify. Descriptors are descriptors, I don't place sfik[1] on them. Or rather, when I do place sfik on descriptors it comes around to bite me on the ass and once (in the case of 'feminist') led me to my second catastrophic stress breakdown, so I ... try not to invest any sense of sfik in them. It just feels unhealthy to me, perhaps due to past baggages.

I think you would like [info]elisem's 'elf-identified bisexual' speech, for a variety of reasons, but I cannot get the link for you right now because it is two in the morning and my head may explode.

Also, I find your comment about guysmells entertaining, because one of my mild issues about my post-pregnancy body is that it keeps smelling notably female at me and I find this upsetting on the gender-dysphoric level (no, wrong), on the associative problems level (previous times my body has smelled notably female have been associated with PMS, which sucks a lot for me), and on the heterosexuality level (WOULD NOT FUCK THAT YUCK).



[1] If you do not have the referent for 'sfik', it is a word from the language of some fairly unpleasant-by-human-standards aliens. It is often translated 'face' or 'status', not that this is accurate in entirety. If you have sfik (the quality) or sfik-items you are higher-ranked than someone who does not have sfik. Gaining sfik upgrades your status; losing sfik is like losing face, but also if you had a lot and you lose it suddenly someone will probably eat you because that is what happens when you are a big loser. (C. J. Cherryh's Chanur series, the kif.) It is a useful concept for a thing that I find it hard to articulate.

[info]rax

December 24 2010, 17:59:28 UTC 1 year ago Edited:  December 24 2010, 18:01:43 UTC

Identifications have harmed me significantly but have also helped me significantly. They are tools with sharp edges that are useful for the kind of work I do in my head, but when I slip or make mistakes, they cut places I did not want cut. (Of course, I can learn about the tools from those cuts, so it is not a total loss.) Sometimes thinking like this is about examining how I have used the tool; sometimes it's preparation for actually putting the tool in my hand and doing something to the inside of my head with it. I don't know which, if either, this is.

(edited solely for typo)

[info]lilairen

1 year ago

[info]bookofjude

December 24 2010, 09:05:11 UTC 1 year ago

I find it difficult to consciously consider myself to be "gay" even though that's how I outwardly identify. If I am not paying attention to self-labeling, or, if I am paying too much attention--a bit like how, when you look at words long enough, they become unfamiliar, I describe and think of myself as either "me" or "normal".

"Gay" is a great and, relatively, simple word, but, and this is perhaps due to a negative cognition of my own, it is a word that seems to derive its meaning by being in contrast to "straight": "liking people who represent as being of one's own binary-gender identity" opposed "liking people who represent as being of the opposite of one's own binary-gender identity". I am neither of these because, when I think of what I like, I just think of what I like, rather than thinking "Oh, I like this, which is different to what other people like".

Finally, the answer I seem to come up with most of the time, and most likely the correct one, it is possible that I am trying too hard to fit myself into a label and that I should just relax and not worry about it.

[info]rax

December 24 2010, 18:02:33 UTC 1 year ago

Yeah, the whole gay-as-only-useful-in-relation-to-straight trap is interesting. I wonder if "bi-as-only-useful-in-relation-to-gay-or-straight" is a similar trap. I dunno.

[info]greyooze

December 24 2010, 12:37:20 UTC 1 year ago

I'll quote Zelazny on labels:
"...'fire' does not matter, 'earth' and 'air' and 'water' do not matter. 'I' do not matter. No word matters. But man forgets reality and remembers words. The more words he remembers, the cleverer do his fellows esteem him. He looks upon the great transformations of the world, but he does not see them as they were seen when man looked upon reality for the first time. Their names come to his lips and he smiles as he tastes them, thinking he knows them in the naming."

Almost all our labels are approximations in one sense or another. Is Pluto a planet? What does "planet" mean? It's just a word we made up, does the universe recognise such a concept? We used to classify Ceres and Pallas as planets too, although the idea seems laughable today; our grandchildren will probably view Pluto in the same light.

Here is a lame naming argument from my own neck of the woods for your entertainment*: "What should Wikipedia have under the article title ''Ireland''? Should it be about the physical island, the political state, or a disambiguation page between them?" Wikipedia spent about four years dragging on an argument about this. And if you think that's bad, you should see what goes on about this and related topics in real life.

Of course, at some level we have to have labels, even inaccurate ones, in order to converse with each other. There are only a finite number of hours in the day, so if we launch into a philosophical discussion every time we want to tell someone "feed the cat" there will shortly not be a cat to feed! So at some stage we have to come up with definitions for words and treat them as if they're solid, even if in reality they're social constructs and about as stable as a house of cards. It might be that most actual physical instances of "cat" don't match our mental picture of the word, but we use it anyway because it's sort of like an average? I think this is what [info]rushthatspeaks was talking around in that an actual person's gender might not exactly fit the normal categories?

I think this is related to the physical/conceptual divide, if only because mathematical concepts tend to be much better defined by their terminology; the division of triangles into equilateral, isosceles, and scalene is rigidly defined, for example (although there are some confused points of terminology even in mathematics, like using the symbol "π" for the prime-counting function, not to mention the questions of sphere dimensionality, or whether or not 0 is a natural number).


smooth skin, less hair, and not smelling like man

Haha, I tick none of your boxes. Incidentally, I think many straight women also dislike our smell, which is why they make us wear aftershave and suchlike stuff. Not me, though! I am a cool rebel! Also I, uh, don't shave in the first place, so yeah. There was a brief discussion on the Internet once between a group of us about who had the largest moustache. One person claimed that, since his moustache ran into his beard, he could count the latter as part of it. I suggested that if "continuous trail of hair" was the criterion we were going for, then I had a "moustache" extending up to and including my toes, and that was the last we heard of that argument. Which brings us back to word-definitions again, I guess.


TL;DR summary: Language is a clumsy but necessary invention. Also, GK makes himself sound like a Wookiee.

(* If strangers arguing on the Internet entertains you, that is. Wikipedia is my soap opera, not gonna lie.)

[info]greyooze

December 24 2010, 12:39:39 UTC 1 year ago

that did not seem as long-winded in the edit box

Wow, I kinda got comment all over your post, sorry about that. *cleans up the mess*

[info]plymouth

1 year ago

[info]greyooze

1 year ago

[info]eredien

December 24 2010, 20:09:54 UTC 1 year ago

I like to use "pansexual" because, honestly, I am attracted more to women and genderqueer/gender-variant people than men, and for me, not reinforcing the gender binary is so much more important (though I do feel bad about obscuring the work that bi activists have done and are doing; it's problematic). I feel like "not reinforcing the gender binary" is a good descriptor of my sexuality, really.

Lately I've been using "weighted" as a descriptor; "pansexual weighted genderqueer lesbians," for me, goes a long way toward both accuracy and capturing some suggestion of flux and changability while implying that there is an effort involved to weight the scales in the other direction.

[info]lotusbiosm

December 25 2010, 03:55:30 UTC 1 year ago

smelling like man. (I don't know how to better describe it. There is a family of smells I associate with adult human males that I find largely unpleasant.)

I know what smells you mean, but I find it attractive. Like, if I'm in an elevator with someone who smells like man I may find myself a little weak in the knees. Ah, the amazing variation of human sexual desire and expression.

[info]anacoluthon

December 26 2010, 06:44:17 UTC 1 year ago

My biggest issue with "bisexual" is what you mention - that it states that there are men and women, and a bisexual person likes both. But what about all those other people, many of whom I am also attracted to???

For a while, I favored "pansexual" which is nicely inclusive, but I found myself having to explain what "pansexual" meant about 80% of the time. Right now I default to "queer," even though I realize that a lot of people probably think that's just another way to say "gay." (I am still not used to most people I meet here pegging me as a gay man. It's very strange and I can't always decide how I feel about it.)

I do feel for bi activists fighting against erasure and I wish I felt comfortable using "bisexual" as a way to self-identify. I've certainly chosen it as an option where there weren't any better, and I'd rather have someone think of me as bi than straight or gay. But I don't feel comfortable using it if I have another option.

[info]lutris

December 29 2010, 03:08:43 UTC 1 year ago

My mum for years that bisexual would be 'just a phase' before I went gay or straight. I'm not sure if she still thinks that, it's not really come up in years. It's a bit of a shame; it never really colored my view much, but it was a bit disheartening as a kid.
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